Within the next few weeks I’ll be shutting one of my eBay shops for good and withdrawing from the marketplace. It’s not because I haven’t made good profits, it’s because eBay has forced me out of the marketplace.
As many of you know I’ve traded in second user computer products for many years, but last year was tough economically. Due to the need to maintain my income I set up a totally separate eBay business with a new User ID and a new eBay shop selling 2nd hand clothing. For several months trading was brisk, supply was (and still is) practically unlimited, and I quickly gained PowerSeller status and when Top Rated Sellers were introduced both my eBay selling IDs qualified instantly.
Once eBay started measuring low DSRs it was a different story however. Whilst my computer ID has no low DSR scores, my clothing ID had a couple of low scores and quickly lost Top Seller status. These were low DSR scores from July 2009, well before eBay announced that they’d start measuring low DSR scores.
Now I’m faced with the predicament that as of April 1st, based on the DSRs from July 2009, the account will be below standard and be demoted in search, because of the DSRs received before eBay changed the rules.
There’s only really three options open to me:
1) I could up my number of sales to be measured over 3 months, but that would mean doubling a revenue stream that’s already proven to be difficult to manage. For sure I won’t be selling low value items at no profit just to make up numbers to reach 400 transactions a quarter!
2) I could use one of my many dormant eBay User IDs, switch the listings and be a Top Seller within a month. I’m not keen on this idea because I don’t know how long it would be before eBay change the rules again and ruin that ID as well.
3) I could suspend the business until July when the old DSRs drop off the trailing year and start selling again.
None of those options are attractive so the account will be dropped and it’s eBay shop closed.
There’s a couple of lessons to be learnt though, the most important of which is the need to diversify. Don’t rely on a single eBay account for all of your business as you don’t know when they’ll change the rules. Fortunately I’ve a couple of new revenue streams coming online this year so closing one business won’t impact me financially and I’d recommend all eBay sellers diversify off-eBay to protect yourself from site changes which could close your eBay business.
The other lesson is one that eBay need to hear. Different categories appear to attract customers with different expectations. Whilst my DSRs on one ID suggest I give superb service, DSRs on my other ID (trading identically apart from the product) suggest otherwise. I suspect it would be very revealing to see average DSRs on a category by category basis, and also on a new goods vs 2nd hand goods split.
If eBay don’t start measuring average DSRs on a category by category basis I suspect they’ll drive many more sellers off the site, or at least force them to change the products they supply.
96 Responses
Sad really but it does keep you on your toes :smile:.
eBay used to be all encompassing now it’s like a bucket full of holes.
Sorry to hear that Chris, I sat down with mark Lewis last year and discussed just this, different products attract different buyers and different opinions on what is good and what is bad.
If eBay want a mix of products then they need to understand that certain types of buyers have different expectations/perceptions.
IMHO this just highlights why alot of the outlets selling “gear for muggers” have such crap feedback, at the end of the day if you want to attract bottom feeders then you should expect to be treated like one.
I think this is about the product Chris and not about your service.
Sorry to hear this Chris — it’s a shame that for such a technical reason you need to close an account, and because of the uncertainty created by this latest series of changes you feel it necessary to recommend diversifying away from eBay — which is after all a huge marketplace, and a great source of buyers.
DSRs do create a very hard hurdle to pass, and it feel it’s a real achievement to have got ours as good as they are at the moment: we do sell across a very wide range of categories, and I am hopeful that we’ll be assessed as TRS this week.
However, before I could say that TRS is an achievement I could be really proud of, and represent the highest possible levels of customer service, it would need three changes:-
1. Remove anonymity
Until I know which transactions are creating poor scores, I can’t know where to improve. I also can’t know whether it is a customer who is abusing the process or one with a genuine grievance. I won’t know whether my team have followed our process and drawn a blank, or whether something has genuinely gone wrong.
When I raise this I am told that some sellers were sending abusive notes to buyers who left low scores. The solution to this is sanctions against the occasional wrong-doers, not turn out the lights. There are no retaliatory negs, and the only sanction the seller has is banning the buyer.
Sunlight is a wonderful disinfectant. If this is a system to be proud of, let’s shout it from the rooftops.
2. Hold buyers to higher standards
The DSRs are a buyer-scored system — so it’s only as good as the buyer. Demanding is great — I love demanding buyers. Mad, stupid, lazy, irrational and uncaring buyers. I don’t like them at all. The trouble is that many buyers don’t understand or care about the feedback they leave (I correspond with all buyers who leave us a neg or neutral and it’s flabbergasting what they say).
Buyers have no reputational risk in leaving negs/neutrals/1s&2s. This would be simply solved by aggregating all the scores that buyers leave and have a feedback / DSRs “left” score. This isn’t so far from what we have now — you can see the feedback left by a buyer — it just isn’t totted up.
And if there’s a buyer out there who routinely leaves 50% 1s and 2s, then I’d like the ability to not have him buy from me, thanks.
3. Ask sensible questions and appeal unreasonable answers
When I read the categories and the DSR questions, I see the following questions:-
Item as described
“Was there anything else that wasn’t in the description that you’d like”?
Communication
“Did the seller ever assert their rights in the contract, or were they a wet blanket”?
Dispatch time
“Would you like it faster – even if you were offered it but you were not prepared to pay for it”?
Postage and packaging charges
“Would you like it cheaper”? If it wasn’t free then probably you’ll want to leave a 1 here.
I would do two things — I’d have the questions based on trade-offs (would you prefer this or that?) and I’ve have several more questions which allow buyers to vent but which aren’t scored for the seller. For example:-
– When did the item arrive? Was it within x days (the specified time that was in the transaction).
– If there was a problem with the item, were you offered a full refund on return of it?
– Did the Paypal dispute go against you?
[This is one that I wouldn’t have scored against the seller, but which would allow the buyer to vent their frustration with having lost their case]
All these changes and yet as you reported elsewhere Ebay are still receiving the same level of buyer dissatisfaction as before. Do they not realise that by losing a constant trickle of good sellers such as yourself the dissatisfaction levels will increase rather than improve
I am getting sick of these lazy buyers that file paypal dispute because they didn’t get their item in time. There just to lazy to click on the tracking number and then hold me responsible for post office transit times.
So Chris can you recommend another site that I can sell on?
Sorry to hear this, Chris 😐
“I’d recommend all eBay sellers diversify off-eBay to protect yourself from site changes which could close your eBay business.”
I got this message loud and clear when ebay cut overseas visibility at the drop of a hat (and ‘fessed up about it later), also at the same time there were VERO problems, with some sellers being faced by a seemingly Kafkaesque process to try to restore their accounts.
Whilst neither of these actually affected my business, it was crystal clear that changes could be made at any time which would. Sure enough, a few years later the ban on BIN items under 99p was probably the biggest one affecting my particular business (and many others too). By that time fortunately I had diversified off the site.
I’m sure that ebay could still provide a decent revenue stream for my business. However, given the potential unreliability and that there are only so many hours in a day, I prefer to concentrate my efforts elsewhere these days.
You’re spot on Chris, different products attract different buyers and expectations. Seems buyers of low price second-hand items are the hardest to please. Clothing of any sort I wouldn’t want to deal with either.
You’re also correct that buyers don’t give anywhere near as much thought and consideration to feedback as eBay seem to think they do. Some of my feedback in the past specifically refers to products I’ve never sold, on closer inspection they’ve left multiple identical feedback for all their recent purchases, or refers to product in “Good condition”…. well of course it’s good condition it’s brand new and sealed you….. 😕
I’ve closed my eBay shop up this weekend, after 5 years I’ve had enough of continiously jumping through different hoops every five minutes, plus categories now flooded with product make it impractical to make money anymore. I’ve other revenue streams including Amazon, my own site and non internet trading. I will still keep a small amount of product on eBay but mainly clearence stuff now. Buyers expectation of prices is becoming impractical given the fees eBay charge.
eBay will continue to change out of all recognition in the next year or so, whether their chosen path is the right way forward or not only time will tell. But for me it’s the end of the road as a major venue.
I’m an artist and sell nothing but my own artwork. I wonder if there will be any place at all for people like me in the “new and improved” Ebay! My sales are off by at least 90 percent. Its just a hobby now but at one time, I was really racking up the sales. Its sad that anybody has to be pushed out. Donahoe wants ebay to become a cheesy clone of amazon and nothing will deter him from that goal…except maybe continued failure!
Similar thing happened to me when they introduced 4.3 as the absolute minimum on eBay. I had been making a killing shipping high end and high margin electronics internationally via International Express Mail. I think my S&H and shipping time DSRs were around 4.1 as a result even though I shipped everything within 24 hours. These were all DSRs that were left months before the minimum was announced and the only way to improve my DSRs was to quit selling or sell something else.
I guess I lucked out since my supplier quit supplying right at the time the announcement was made, otherwise I would have chased that money until I was banned from eBay. Now my DSRs are 4.8 – 4.9.
This is so sad, but as an ‘eBay designer’ this is why I am doing more traditional e-commerce design than eBay design here in the UK. The work I have related to eBay is really mostly outlet based as these are the exceptions to most rules.
There is still a strong set of eBay sellers that I work with but I hope eBay really listens and goes back to its roots soon.
If someone as talented and dedicated to his customers as Chris – is closing a shop because of policy changes, then anybody selling second hand clothing is in serious jeopardy of losing their business.
1% “item as described” is near on impossible…to put into context its like 1 in 100 customers feeling they have something not as described…. Well I get customers who complain about a loose thread on the bottom of an inner lining; a chipped button; a leg measurement that is 0.25″ longer… the thing here is that alot of the descriptions that are put are subjective, and to have confusion or an error in 1% of ones sales is to me acceptable. I know over 100 times that I shop somewhere like Tesco or Argos or somewhere like that, I come home to find a problem…and its more than 1 in a 100…but do we look at Tesco as a poor shopping experience…no.
Also in society there are more than 1% of people who are fussy beyond any reasonable measure.
FINAL THOUGHTS: Whoever is crunching numbers at ebay and making these massive changes should spend a week looking at key sellers in key used categories and look at how much effort goes into running an online business. Selling a new, wrapped DVD is 100 fold easier that selling a used suit (and the 8 measurements and 6 photographs that go with it)….
Also the item specifics and eBay glitches (most recent variant listings inventory) are seriously flawed. We have to cope with all these ebay problems, and still deliver service. To give an example, eBay classify suits as “M, L, XL, XXL” etc….when have you every gone into a shop and said, “I would like to buy a “medium suit” please…yet this item specific exists on ebay and is a choice for the buyer.
I would go and find some therapy and medication,
anyone who sells second hand clothes on ebay
needs it
we question if DSRs and TRS are so crucial,
we know of 2 platinum powersellers[we supply them] who are nowhere near TRS and making a fortune
I really do hope eBay read this and also listen to what real time served sellers are saying here.
I was in HSBC once listening to a business advisor bragging a 92% positive feedback rating from it’s customers … eBay sellers give service above and far beyond the norm even with the threat of a big stick that is negative feedback and low DSR’s.
Shout the good service from the rooftops eBay don’t put additional needless restrictions on your sellers, I’m sure there are more sellers like Chris who’ve just had enough. What is the next loop to jump through?
eBay, you are still not listening enough, as #21 John says in ‘FINAL THOUGHTS’ Get out there and see how hard it really is or JUST LISTEN!
Anorak 😛
I totally agree with DBL any high street store would be shouting from the roof tops if they had the level of customer satisfaction that an ebay seller had just to keep an above average status let alone top rated. The recent Which survey on supermarkets was won by Waitrose with a customer satisfaction score of 79%.
I think the main problem with ebay is that very few if any of the senior staff have every sold on eBay. The people who make the DSR and feedback rules should be made to try selling on eBay. Have them spend 3 months selling and let them see how difficult it is to keep some buyers from leaving undeserved negative feedback and low DSRs. This would give them an insight into the problems we face all the time and a better understand of how the feedback and DSR system works in the real world.
Of course, eBay are entitled to manipulate search results, discounts and other penalties / incentives in the ways they see fit. Unfortunately, applying a numerical formula doesn’t always tell the whole truth.
Feedback and DSR scores are supposed to help the buyer make an informed choice and eBay have championed this ‘USP’ frequently. Yet, eBay seem increasingly to be losing confidence in the ability of buyers. If Chris’ potential buyers saw that he had a couple of low DSRs, but everything else was spot on and that any problems had been professionally handled, they would have been confident to buy and 99% likely to be more than happy with their item. Is it really now so dangerous to treat buyers (and sellers) like grown adults?
It seems highly questionable as to whether the DSR-based requirements are achieving their overall aim of reducing bad buyer experiences. My friends still complain, for example, that trying to buy some electrical goods on ebay is like trawling through a ‘miserable jumble sale of 99p / £10 postage items from Hong Kong’.
What seems certain is that eBay’s efforts are often working counter to their aim. When a chap like CD is incentivised to stop selling for a couple of 1/2 DSRs on a low volume account, (while the 99p ‘private’ sellers with thousands of listings carry on unmolested) – there has to be a wake-up call somewhere along the line.
I wonder how these blatantly favoured Outlet stores will fair with the outrageous eBay changes in April?? The sad fact is that they will still probably be given TRS without lifting a finger. Yet a Seller like Chris has little if any chance at all to build a successful business. eBay so needs a competitor !!!VC’s where are you ??? We have a business proposition for your !!!
There’s probably more stability running a corner shop in Helmand than an online store on eBay lol
My account is currently suspended from selling because I have exceeded one of the NEW DSR’s that aren’t supposed to be introduced until April. The current DSR for dispatch is 4%. My current DSR is 2.05%. I was suspended instantly when I went over the 2%. Ebay eventually told me they are implementing them already. This is literally the result of a couple of people voting me down on dispatch time in January. The ridiculous thing is that its pointless dsr in any case because in any case Ebay make me state my dispatch time, no buyer can know whether I honoured it or not as the post mark is not a reliable indication. Buyers treat the dispatch DSR as a delivery DSR and Ebay states that no sellers are responsible for that in all their listings. So a couple of people blamed me for the snow and now I can’t sell.
Apart from the fact that its against natural justice to punish someone without telling them what they have done as Ebay did I also have no idea if this situation will persist or ever be lifted .posts pointing this out or asking for advice in Ebay forums are frequently removed emails are not responded to.. My feedback is 99.3% and I would consider 99.5% a good target for a volume seller. I see that one outlet who sells shoes(sic) has feedback less than 99% which means assuming that the negative feedback they received included 1 and 2’s for some DSRS then their DSRS for positive feedback received e.g. item description must have been 100% which is impossible. its quite obvious that Ebay are not applying the same rules about DSRS to outlets. The message could not be more clear Ebay do not want small businesses on their site.
I often read about people making the same decisions such as Chris has made. In my case Ebay have made the decision for me. Its hard to believe but Ebay will lose more business from the new DSRS than they did from the the postage fiasco.
eBay have created a buyer/seller relationship akin to Russion Roulette with buyers holding the trigger.
Clearly, whatever we may think, eBay feel a need to improve the buyer experience. And ultimately, whatever sellers may think, it is the buyers who create the revenue for eBay. No buyers, no sales, no fee revenue.
Business is a competitive game and life is not fair. Maybe we should stop blaming eBay for our failings and take control of our own destiny.
How we do that is the real question here.
From my perspective, however much I would like to give eBay all my business, I am not prepared to under the current set up as it is way too high a business risk. As suggested diversification and the spreading of risk is the only sensible course of action.
Multiple eBay accounts, diverse product offerings and “off eBay” sales channels is the only sensible course of action for those who are serious about their business and revenue stream.
Those who rely on a single eBay seller user ID for income are operating in a very high risk environment.
If eBay have any desire at all to stop this drift of seasoned eBay sellers away from “Island eBay” then they really have to start with a full revue of the DSR scoring set up.
And have a reprimand system that has some form of rehabilitation period that gives sellers the opportunity over a sensible timeframe to take corrective action without imposing any fee discount or search penalties during this rehabilitation period.
Chris
Have you not asked your account manager to tweak you DSR score?
You must know that ebay will do this for upstanding members. 😉
I’m pretty sure that you must be an upstanding member of ebay.
Chris,
If it is still a profitable avenue despite the strong possibility of having reduced visability due to historic DSRs before the change of policy.
Should you then continue for the next three months as you are, and monitor the sales ratio and income gained. It may not effect that ID as much as you first thought.
The only problem I do see is if the DSRs fall that much to suspend the ID, would it then connect to your main ID and suspend that too? If that is the case I fully understand your decision that it is too higher risk to take.
Failing that a nice email detailing your supplier would be nice and I’ll send a easter egg in return. 😉
Chris, you must be pretty low volume so this must be a pretty insignificant portion of your sales. It’s not 400 transactions a month, it’s 400 over 3 months. 140 transactions a month is only 4-5 sales a day which is nothing.
I wonder if Dyscern will still be selling on eBay with the new minimum standards or if they don’t apply to her.
One of the issues that sellers seem to be finding is that fewer buyers seem to be bothering leaving feedback. The comments made were that it seems to be mirroring Amazon in that it’s only when something goes wrong that feedback is being left and it is over a broad range of categories.
You must be doing well if you can afford to give up 8 grand a year of income 😀
I’m one who left eBay as a seller long ago because of increased fees. I then became an affiliate with them and have now dropped them because of the screwing they are giving to affiliates who send them traffic.
This of course, was over a matter of years and during that time I learned programming and all about running websites. I have never forgiven eBay for becoming the greedy s.o.b.’s that they have turned into.
I read in another blog post on this site, a comment someone made about being able to start your own auction website for about $1000. Right they are. I spent the money and though I have no expectations of being able to compete with the eBay name or customer base, I do think my website has the potential of providing an inexpensive means for honest sellers to make more profit from sales.
If you would allow me, Yabexe.com (that’s ex-eBay spelled backward) is now available and looking for members. I only ask you try it risk free (A $10 credit is given at registration).
Thank you.
@ebuyerfb
Point well taken. Not a perfect system. The freemail users are blocked (gmail, etc. and constantly being updated). I’ve made an exception to yahoo, just because of the amount of people using it. There is a Verified Seller Program in place, whereby all information provided by the member has been confirmed by myself or the help. This would alleviate the potential for a scam if the buyer only purchases from a verified seller – even if they use AOL or Yahoo.
@radams
If I were to have taken your comment to heart years ago, I wouldn’t have over 100 websites of different genres making me $3000/mo. You sure you aren’t part of my family who now calls me looking for money after the laughs they had back then? Thanks for the input. 🙂
@Sue
You think it needs brand recognition, or are you referring to the color and “backward” similarity? If the latter, that has been investigated legally and I’m safe. I have been wondering if I shouldn’t make some kind of recognizable image, though.
First they came for the mom and pop stores, and I did not speak out — because I was not a small store;
Then they came for the collectables, and I did not speak out — because I was not a collectable seller;
Then they came for the small Power Sellers, and I did not speak out — because I was not a small Power Seller;
Then they came for me — and there was no one left to speak out for me.
(after Martin Niemöller)
I think she is trying to say that if ebay keep giving the smaller people the chop one day you will be the smallest and next for the chop.
therefor helping the smaller guy is actually helping yourself.
or it could just be whatever she is drinking 😆
It may well be the case that different categories attract different types of buyers who intepret the subjective DSR stars differently.
But surely its up to the seller to adjust to meet those expectations, not the buyer that needs to lower their expecations and not ebay.
I am pretty optimistic that, if I could be bothered, I could find a 2nd hand clothes seller with the TRS badge.
We sell a lot of second-hand clothes, but not exclusively so, and we are hopeful that we’ll get our TRS badge this weekend.
The Elephant in the room, however, is not the sideshow of PS/TRS, which is a bit awkward if you lose it for a month, but the big secretive behemoth of Trust and Safety, who can turn out the lights without so much as by-your-leave.
I don’t think I’m a scumbag, so why am I so scared of the Secret Police?
if a category is so devoid of TRS sellers then it is not so important to be a TRS to be successful in that category
one only needs to compete with one’s competitors – when I am looking to buy some socks on the high street, I don’t look in pc world.
TRS status really affects us in America
on another ID that lost TRS basically because Americans cant grasp there is an ocean between us, sales to The US are down 30%,
and then would you Adam and Eve it,
you get an effin email from ebay saying how you should increase your sales by selling to America
Hi Chris
Join the club!! I shut a store down a few months ago, It looks like ebay is facing the consequences of implementing this DSR and TSR policy. I’ve just written an article on channel advisor – maybe they might see abit of business out of this?
Dave
To Chris and all good sellers who can no longer make a living on eBay.
There is life after eBay. I made my living exclusively on eBay for almost 10 years trading as AntiquesAvenue. A couple of years ago I found that eBay charges were eating all my profits and set up my own webshop to try and supplement my eBay income. 2 years later and the the website has now become the only place I sell and am making a better living than ever before. If I can do it so can any professional eBay seller
Anne
actually maybe this is simply because although Chris is a good computer part seller, he is a rubbish clothes seller.
😆
This has been my warning about this system all along — how can any real business consider eBay a reliable part of its online platform when one bad month of DSR’s can literally kill you business.
We have multiple IDs and we have one that has 99.9% FB with huge Holiday sales that will indeed lose TRS in March for at least a month.
Bur scarier is how do we buy inventory for the Holidays when we have no idea if eBay will even allow us to be visible?
I am just a buyer not a seller on e-bay. However, I do think it is a travesty that anyone sees the need to close a business simply because of a change in policy.
I find E-bay useful for certain things, and the service ranges from excellent to v poor.
I have issues with sellers who make out they are more than they actually are. For example there are loads of businesses on e-bay selling clothes. All designer brands etc etc. Whilst I appreciate the effort and time put into this they are nothing more than second hand clothes salesman. I personally I would never buy clothes off e-bay. I don’t think anyone doing so could expect to get 100% ratings. You see all the elaborate ebay shops and signs but all in all your dealing with someone else’s castoff’s.
I have issues with sellers who make out they are more than they actually are.
…Some would say the same about certain buyers… 🙄
Yeah same here.. You wouldn’t happen to be the person buying those $15,000 dresses on ebay would you?
I have never bought clothes off ebay and never would. I bought one DVD which was a copy, never again. I am a honest buyer, I give good reviews when I can. I would not give a bad review just to damage someone’s reputation.
What annoys me is those with flashy shops, when in essence when you read the small print, it is second hand. How can something from Debenham’s be classed as designer. Which my husband and I saw, how we laughed think it was Give me clothes or something shop, lol lol lol.
Still believe it is close to trade descriptions. If for example this shop trades with the likes of Second Hand Armani, then in the midst is Debenhams (second hand) it is taking a liberty to class it as the same.
For as many honest traders as there are on Ebay there are those who are not. And all this “I am a Guru of Ebay” it is hardly rocket science is it????
Running a business on eBay is very hard, to do it right that is. If anyone says anything different then they are either lying or doing a bad job of it.
Designer can mean many things, bit “snobby” to read into it IMO… 🙄
I agree with most of the comments and sympathise with the creator of the topic.
I have sold a number of different unrelated products but the pattern of trading on ebay is the same what ever the product. Buyers have long since forgotten that they are buying goods and saving up to 75% of the retail price, maybe more, but their expectations of service in both delivery and cost of the item itself has increased and with the one sided nature of Ebay’s attitude this is likely to get worse.
If the profits were there then this could be classed as fair game and commerce, but the majority of sellers that I am aware of struggle to purchase items with sufficient margin of markup to make a viable business. I think that most of us if we are honest are somewhat amateur sellers and probably without a previous training and experience in what we do, so proper costings don’t take place such as the cost of the time it takes to actually list a item taking all the care that the snakepits are covered. Next time you have a batch of items to list time yourself properly, from start to finish of your involvement with listing and then apply commercial costs, you will shock yourself!
To continue the moan, I have been trading on ebay since 2002 and have yet to find a product that I can buy as a wholesale item in the small quantities that ebay sales can achieve and still make cover the costs, so my general mode is to buy large quantities and sell them over years, I am still selling stock that I purchased over 5 years ago. This is the main problem, having confidence in your marketplace for the same duration. Now when I am about to consider a new item, I am aware that I am likely to be involved in that item for at least 12 months and likely to be much longer. Ebays does not support its sellers and as far as I can tell treats small/medium business sellers with pure comtempt. I do not know of many ebay changes that have been made since I have been selling that have actually increased sales without a further increase in costs, so I can’t buy anything with any confidence in the future, I have take into account that any change in Ebay’s attitude or a bad run of ego fuelled and frankly low intellect buyers could put me out of business with the least notice. It is all very well to give buyers the power without responsibility but without being too personal how many of them are up to the task??
So I am too am running stocks down as I can’t see 2-3 years in advance and I can’t trust ebay to do the right thing by decent sellers. When stocks are run down, I’ll view the situation on the basis I can jump ship in the same manner as ebay or its buyers can jetison my overboard
more sellers that jump ship the better
far too many of the buggers nicking my customers 😈