What do you do when a buyer requests a return and you know it’s a false SNAD (Significantly Not As Described) return and want to appeal it? Currently there’s nothing you can do until after the event and with eBay rolling out auto-accept returns there will still be nothing you can do until after the return takes place.
The issue with returns is that eBay either won’t (or possibly can’t) change a return request reason once a buyers has selected an option. Even if you call eBay and the customer support rep agrees that it’s clearly a case of buyer remorse but they claimed a false SNAD they won’t be able to intervene.
When a false SNAD is claimed you can report it before the return takes place to eBay, but you’ll still be advised to accept the return, pay for the return postage, and only when the item arrives can you contact eBay and ask for a refund of the return postage costs. (If you do speak to eBay, make sure you keep a note of the SR 1-XXXXXXXXXXXX phone call ID).
As eBay auto-accept returns roll out, sellers won’t even have the opportunity to speak to eBay before the return is accepted on their behalf. Whether a genuine return reason is selected by the buyer the return will be accepted, you’ll pay for a postage label, and then have to claim for a refund if you can provide evidence that it was a false SNAD claim.
From hearsay we believe that eBay support may be receiving hundreds of calls a day from sellers appealing false SNAD returns and requesting a refund of the postage costs. Each time the issue has to be escalated for a decision to be made and it will be costing eBay time and money to do so. If the number of false SNAD claims continue to increase, which is perfectly possible once auto-accept returns roll out, then eBay may be forced to take action to reduce their workload. In the mean time it would appear prudent for sellers to continue to claim when they have a genuine false SNAD claim as otherwise it’s they who will foot the bill for postage.
The issue here is an ingrained one of blame. Buyers need to be educated on their rights which are that they can return any item purchased online without having to give a reason. Setting aside the small number of buyers who will falsely claim an item is broken or doesn’t perform the function described, when wanting to make a return it’s natural to think you have to give a reason.
“Doesn’t fit” for example isn’t SNAD – especially in fashion it’s well known that sizing between manufactures can vary enormously. Colour a different shade to the image is also not SNAD – different screens will display colours differently so it’s not surprising you can’t get an exact match between the item and the image. There are countless reasons someone might want to change their mind that aren’t due to the description not matching the item.
What’s needed is a very clear “Why do you want to return this item?” question with a “No reason, I just don’t want this item” no fault return option. There’s no need to find blame, it’s not the seller’s fault, it’s not the buyer’s fault. It’s just them exercising their right to examine the item on receipt and decide if they want to keep it nor not. If they don’t want to keep it part of their rights is to return the item but also part of their rights is that the buyer foots the return postage costs (so long as the seller specified this up front in their terms and conditions).
No one wants false SNAD returns (except dishonest buyers). Genuine buyers will simply be happy that they can change their mind and return the item. Genuine sellers will be more than happy to comply with the law and accept returns for no reason other than the buyer wants to return the product. eBay will be happy because they’re not inundated with false SNAD claims taking up their support time.
But how do we educate buyers that it’s OK to return something on eBay without saying there’s something wrong with the item? That’s something that eBay themselves will have to do.
50 Responses
I’m amazed at these changes. I don’t mind either of the pre fulfil cancel or messaging response rate metrics – we actually improved our customer service offering based on the 24hr target when it was introduced, and pre fulfil cancels are a useful way of keeping tabs on stock level issues.
Dissatisfaction rate I’m happy to see the back of – it never reflected how well we handle issues.
I do wonder if they’re just going to bring something else in to replace the first two.
I am not sure if it’s still the case, but ebay used to lead the buyer down the route of opening a case, rather than communicating with the seller.
I think that ebay should not allow any return or case options UNTIL there is shown to be communication between buyer and seller.
As to whether ebay will bow to seller pressure, I don’t know.
It takes me back to ebay’s order refunds.
If a buyer overpays on postage and you refund, unless you refund the entire order, ebay will keep some of the fees paid. Just like if a buyer orders 5 items on one order and returns one item, you can’t AFAIK refund the one item via ebay to claim your fees back, ebay keep them.
I am sure ebay could sort the “issue”, but as they must get quite a bit of money from it, best to leave alone and most just accept as “One of those things”
Maybe that will change with the Adyen venture, we’ll have to wait and see.
It varies month to month however around a 1/3 of all our SNAD returns are customers opening returns for the wrong reason. Much of the time buyers even stating in the comment “doesn’t fit” or “didn’t like it” when opening a “not as described” case. We will often just pay for the return postage and not bother involving eBay as it’s not worth the time.
The issue with the the new service metrics “consequences” is that sellers have no way of controlling and appealing false claims. With no method of removing false claims a lot is left up to chance. Our peer average has jumped around significantly since we started monitoring it.
eBay stated that the peer assessment takes into account that sellers will be subject to some “false claims” however why not just remove the false claims from the metrics and adjust the peer assessments accordingly. Leaving false claims as part of an assessment means anyone can be prone to an unfair string of false SNAD claims.
Why can we not appeal false claims especially as it effects our seller metric?
This leaves a seller open to abuse from buyers or even competitors. If there is no appeal process how can this be right. I fully accept any errors on my part but why should I be judged on something I haven’t done. Why is this large company not protecting its customers? And seems willing to drive them away
This is just wrong
And I have to say the finally straw I will be closed by the end of October
I no longer want to put up with the increasing sticks they use to beat their customers with
I have on average a 35% repeat buyer rate with some regulars for over 10 years. I support a number of small businesses. That’s on average over 1200 buyers a year that will be disappointed next time they try to find my shop. This has really upset me as I am proud of my customer service which is reflected in these figures but it’s time to ditch the stress and time wasted jumping through hoops
oh no…. don’t get me started! The root of this is that once ebay has your fees… they simply don’t care. They know that to cover losses you will increase prices and so they will rake in more fees. To the buyer it is always the seller at fault and so ebay comes up smelling of roses. It’s a win win for them.
Now some say this is driving the smaller sellers off the site, well yes it is, but i doubt they see this as an issue. The large volume sellers proberly never question anything as its not cost effective to them. So ebays easy fees systems works great.
This is why nothing changes, its because ebay never gets tarnished with anyone but the sellers, and those sellers that do take it to them, are quickly leaving due to being fed up of or simly unable to keep taking the hit.
All i ever here from ebay is that as they have not been able to see the item that was sent or the item that was received, that they feel the best thing is for the seller to accept the item back and be out of pocket. I have had cases where the buyer has admited the wrong reason was given – 3 emails and ebay never once even acknowledged that part of my mail. I have had cases where the buyer has provided pictures which actually backed up my appeal…. still lost as they said they couldn’t be sure. In fact the appeals process is generally nothing more than an excercise that at the end of it you can say to yourself ‘atleast i gave them some hassle too’..
Reasons for return should be. Defective, not as described, nolonger wanted. Simple. Then a box for reason why if one of the first two. This will help with appeals etc.
The long list of reasons at the moment is beyond a joke.
…… New one in today. Reason for return not as described. Buyer message, ‘I needed it for Monday and it turned up tuesday’ . Checking the details… paid on Sunday, paid for royal mail 48. Other options were RM24 and 24hr courier. If i appeal… i will proberly lose as the buyer didn’t get it ‘on time’. Yes I have had that thrown back at me before!
I rest my case.
Ebay will also then deny the appeal. As this has happened on several occasions.
When customer opens a return they have to then purchase an ebay return label to get the case open. No option to sort out another courier
The only other option is to open a not as described / damaged case so they can get away with out purchasing a label. Which we as sellers have to pay for.
Even if they say in the message they do not fit you have to sort it out and then appeal which is what I was told in email from eBay customer representative.
I did this customer returned at my cost I then phoned and appealed and asked if partial refund could be authorized as per email conversations with customer and eBay customer service. They told me that the appeal was denied and found in favour of the buyer and promptly refunded in full even though the previous communication told me to appeal and I would get the marks removed and refunded the costs of label.
So this is now a black mark on returns and black mark on Cases closed without seller resolution.
Just another way Ebay is trying to get sellers to pay more to them as they now force everyone to pay for there return label despite them charging £3.05 even when the item will go in a large letter.
They also force you to refund even the postage cost when they have requested a special service like next day, or sat delivery.
Charge you and extra 4% on top of the 10% fees which includes the special postage charges which they tell you have to be under a certain amount despite them taking some of this to.
Then suggest you should sell your item cheaper what do they think will happen all anyone can do is to put prices up to combat the increasing costs eBay force on to sellers. Wouldn’t be surprised if they try to get all sellers to do free returns regardless of reasons as they can then get the fees from this additional costs.
“The fees are currently 2.7% according to sources. This is less than the PayPal headline rate of 3.4%”
Paypal has a 20p charge per transaction as well, whether you’re on 3.4% or a better, lower merchant rate.
Anyone know what the per transaction charge, if any, ebay/adyen are doing along with the 2.7% rate?
If Ebay are judge and jury then you can be as well. If a buyer abuses the system and you have to pay a postage return fee, then ban them from buying from you again. One abuse and you are out. We had one the other day on Amazon with a women saying that the item she got was useless and could not use it and had to throw it away and wanted an immediate refund. We said that we wanted it returning so we could return it to the manufacturer and she then stated that she could not find it as her son who has ADHD had moved it.(where from? if thrown away it can only be in the bin, inside or out, more like her son had tangled it to make it useless)
Once we refused the refund she went back on and ordered it again, exactly the same item. You know what’s going to happen when she gets it, but we did not give her the chance as we refunded her item and said there was a problem with her address. She then went on one saying that we were the cheapest and she really needed the item.
If ebay want to play funny then so can we and in the end the customer will get to know what the rules are. I don’t mind a return if it’s genuine.
If Ebay won’t help you then you have to help yourself.
I looked at the Amazon business site a few days ago and the following day I received an email from Amazon asking me to sign up to Amazon business which is another way Amazon is trying to promote its b2b service.
The b2b market is X4 larger than the b2c market and is more profitable because businesses tend to order multiple items when they order, whereas the consumer orders 1 or 2 products at a time. It costs the same to deliver 5 laptop computers to business as it does to deliver 1 laptop to a consumer as it takes 1 delivery driver. Business purchasers tend to purchase multiple items when they order. Which means Amazon business is more profitable than the b2c Amazon site being the overall cost reductions in delivery of the last mile.
Amazon knows it is onto a winner with its b2b Amazon business and recently Amazon made a statement that it’s b2b is now a $10 billion business which has been achieved in 3 years and shows massive growth.
Amazon business b2b is incredible as both buyers and sellers open an Amazon business account, they pay Amazon a %15 commission and they also advertise on the b2b site where Amazon earns revenue from the advertising, Amazon also earns revenue from its FBA and delivery and Amazon also earns revenue from business prime subscription service.
What Amazon should do is have 1 minute of pre roll advertising on its prime video and promote its own services such as Amazon business with that Amazon would gain a lot more customers.
I love Stripe I use it on my website for appointment bookings. Half the fees of Paypal and I don’t mind it taking a week. I wish eBay would offer it as people seem to choose Stripe over Paypal
The common sense method of altering things like payment methods is “If it isn’t broke don’t fix it”
The eBay method is “If it isn’t broke fix it until it is”
So, after selling on Bay for over 17 years, I for one will be looking for a more enlightened company to handle my future sales.
Another problem is the peer to peer metric defect that is held against you when a SNAD is raised. Having been told these defects are appealable, then later not appealable, then later appealable – back and fourth with customer service I have been told (categorically) not appealable (and therefore not removable) in these circumstances.
I have always found ebay to be very fair but not in these circumstances. their explanation is that because it is “peer to peer” everyone gets them in the same ratio / proportion.
This is not true. I got 5 of these defects over the weekend. They can all come at once and then you have weeks gap. they are unpredictable and therefore unmeasurable against performance.
Rather than encourage a return with a big button for the buyer to press. Why don’t ebay have an ask a question button and say to buyers, if you need help with setting up the item or are having difficulties ask the seller a question.
We find sometimes people have closed return cases when we have had chance to talk the buyer through basic set-up procedures.
Now items will be returned that are working perfectly, because returns are being pushed by eBay, rather than allowing sellers who have knowledge of the product to offer product help and advice.
The buyer will now have a negative buying experience believing falsely they have been sold a faulty item, when in truth they just set it up incorrectly or misunderstood the instructions. Something that a chat with the seller would avoid.
@ Sophie, I agree with you 100%.
whatever team who has put this together has not realised the frustration / demotivation this causes to have defect after defect that are unappealable – even when it is clearly no fault of ours.
we have just had yet another defect because the customer claims the footwear were not “shiny” enough – she had ordered Hi Shine instead of Patent – there is a BIG difference and we dont get an opportunity to explain that – just a case SNAD.
and we have just had yet another – the customer ordered the wrong colour. HE ordered the wrong colour and asked us to change it after the item had been sent. we get another defect. I am getting disillusioned.
and yet another – INR this time – customer failed to supply his flat number so the item was not delivered. we offer to resend if he lets us know full address but he opens an INR case – remember these will start to count next year too.
ebay will tell sellers to decrease these defects by doing x, y and z but the reality is we have absolutely no control of the quantity and frequency of a defect that you cannot prevent and cannot appeal.
a return over SNAD should only be allowed AFTER the buyer has reached out to the seller and got an explanation.
also, there is decreased motivation from the seller to fix the problem as they already have the defect (we will off course fix).
I only engage with business / employment I can excel at. I thought I was doing well on ebay. However, according to these metrics im not doing so well. this removes my motivation and desire to commit to the platform and encourages me to look for something else.
at the very least these should be appealable when it is clearly buyer remorse or absolutely outwith the sellers control.
our concern is not the postage to pay for the item being returned ……… our concern is losing our 4% in the future (I know it has been pushed back) which is ALL of our net profit. but I also dont like being told I am not describing my items properly ……… I am meticulous – according to my defect rate I am pretty shit at this.
I find that 70% of return requests that are opened are when a buyer has been sent a wrong item by mistake or has a faulty item.
The return request comes through as “buyer X has stated a problem with their item and wishes to return the item for a full refund” but then in the comments section the buyer has written, “Hi you have sent me a red one instead of a blue one, please can you send me the blue one?”
If that had come through as a message the buyer could have had the correct one sent out the same day without having to return the incorrect one…eg happy buyer and great service.
Now buyers are forced to return for a refund.
Most buyers do not realise they are opening return requests which restrict them to returning the item for a full refund rather than trying to send a message.
It amazes me that eBay spend so much time creating metrics to force sellers to provide a “better” buying experience for buyers, but then completely have not understood from a buyers side the difficulty of trying to send the seller a message rather than misleading them into opening up a case which ironically creates a worse of experience for the buyer than simply having a replacement item sent out instantly.
I think the returns process is a good idea in principle, however it is so restrictive in resolving problems it becomes a nightmare for both buyers and sellers.
Alan,
I am a bit shocked to read your words given you usually rise above the general negativity about E-Bay.
The fact you feel the way you do about it really validates what a truly poor invention these service metrics are.
Whilst I don’t believe I will personally be hit with the 4% extra fees on the basis of what I can see on my dashboard at this immediate moment, the mechanism, with its built in invisible moving target, and no right of appeal, could be utterly devastating. If I were to get hit with the 4% extra, then there really would not be much point carrying on with the business. The extra fees would cost me more than my rent and business rates combined.
My business would still be profitable but E-Bay would be making far more out of it than I would be. I have no intention of working 60 or 70 hours a week for peanuts, with E-Bay taking the lions share of the profit.
I will move my business away from E-Bay, and given I sell collectables, that will mean reverting to exhibitions, swapmeets and so on. Its not a route I want to go down, but I do have bills to pay, so will have to do what is necessary.
What I still cannot get away from is, given we are told that the service metrics are intended to improve the buyer experience, how charging sellers that E-Bay deem to be ‘very high’ an extra 4% of fees, and then allowing them to carry on selling is going to achieve anything of the sort. I think its most unusual to find a business attempting to dress up a money grab in such a woefully thinly veiled manner.
I hope that E-Bays 3rd quarter results are suitably down against stock market expectations, perhaps then some pressure will be put upon the board at E-Bay to sort this garbage out, or get out themselves. I acknowledge I might be clutching at straws here, but aside from the straws, I am struggling to find much else to cling on to at the moment.
I should add, as of yesterday I am the proud owner of an item not received case. The message from the buyer in the item not received case – sorry, opened by mistake, item received.
So, inexperienced buyer, either meant to open a case on someone else but selected me, then rather than backspace out of it, carried on and ended up opening the case.
The buyer has now closed the case on my request, but you can imagine my delight at being awarded a defect, that I cannot appeal, for an item I sent to a customer in Australia, who received it and is happy with it. All that, and the item was received in Australia only SIX DAYS after I shipped it.
E-Bay are really missing the point here, I have never met anyone who enjoys being made responsible for something they are clearly not responsible for. Yet here we are, with a new mechanism which, in my view, achieves the same as trying to put out a fire with a can of petrol.
If you want to find a problem then you can always find a problem. ebay seem to enjoy finding problems with sellers and then peanilising them.
Honest sellers try their best to protect themselves, take care of problems when they arise. Yet with the metric system that won’t make any difference.
I did mention to one customer agent the other day I may consider putting in my terms and conditions that I will take fraudulent buyers to court to cover the cost of 4% penalty fees if they open false not as described claims.
Wow! Sad story. When did you last try for reinstatement? I am an old fashioned record shop owner who migrated to eBay in 1999. Had a couple of suspensions along the way but nothing major. I am not happy with the platform but where else is there to sell? Discogs? Musicstack? Own website? I sell on Amazon as well but not much cop for vinyl. Good luck with it
The fun of ebay for me has always been paypal. Its the digital version of a blow money envelope and has worked markedly well for this purpose. As it is, I can no longer buy from all the sellers who opted in, since they do not take paypal. I will opt into the new system when it is forced, and then with a “trash” bank account because this rollout has been so messy I cannot even imagine the crazy when they make everyone join. Then again, I am exactly the smalltime hobby seller buyer combo that the new ceo has announced he wants to leave. So yes I will sell with this new system, cannot say if I want to buy under it.
Unfortunately Karen there is nowhere with the same buying traffic as eBay and they know it, which is why they keep doing this to all us sellers and we keep going back there.
You say “From hearsay we believe that eBay support may be receiving hundreds of calls a day from sellers appealing false SNAD returns’
So that equates to hundreds of false SNAD returns being added to sellers return penalty metrics per day by eBay. No wonder they want them to stay on the metrics this will help them falsely claim sellers are doing a poor job so they can charge 4% extra to as many sellers as possible.
Ebay will keep squeezing business sellers until something dramatic happens and we all take our business elsewhere. While they are making money they will just carry on, when it starts to affect their profits they will maybe look at the underlying case why sellers left the platform. I left the end of August this year due to the return penalty emails.
I am sure they are testing for this but Amazon need to be careful not to ruin the shopping experience on Amazon. I personally tend to skip through the sponsored ads because I want what the algorithm has determined to be the best products for my search.
Voice search will have an interesting impact on this revenue stream for Amazon as well, if the assumption is that people don’t really browse through voice search then the “Amazon Choice” will be the product always selected, with no oppurtunity for sponsored products
If all these surveys on free shipping are to be believed can someone answer this wierd situation.
We have an Item priced at £10.49. free shipping. The cost to us inc shipping and item cost rose by 32 pence.
We increased the price to £10.81 free shipping sales dropped from around 6 per day to 1 or 2 per week.
So we tried £10.49 and 49 pence shipping the sales rose back to around 6 per day.
That tells us buyers want honesty not inflated shipping etc because if they all believe that a carrier collects from us and delivers for free then companies like eBay and Amazon are treating them with contempt.
The buyer knows the cost is added into the item or every business would go bust. It was the old listings of items from China listed for 99 pence and shipping at £12 that brought all this about trying to avoid final value fees. Look at what it caused. It gave eBay a huge 10% or 11% chunk of your shipping costs adding to their profits.
It’s sad to see so many worries caused by this.
I think my business should be OK based on metrics so far, but if the worst happened, I would not sell anything in a category that ebay slapped a punishment fee on, until it had reset. If everyone did this, they would notice a loss of sales, particularly if like my business, you’re sometimes the only seller of an item. Hitting them back in their pocket is the only way to send a message.
The only thing e|Bay want is MONEY MONEY MONEY and its your money. They are not bothered who they damage as long as they keep you bleeding.
We have seen a 10 fold increase in sales on the new website ON BUY and our Amazon sales have stayed strong even with us charging higher prices than on eBay and the slightly higher cost of selling on Amazon is easily accepted for the following reasons.
Amazon do not tell us how to ship.
Amazon do not jump in and tell us how quick to ship.
Amazon do not automatically accept returns.
Amazon do not enforce a 30 day returns policy.
Amazon do not even enforce refunding return shipping we do that ourselves within the law as law abiding online retailers.
And finally amazon buyers seem a lot more savvy.
We have around 1 to 2 messages per week on eBay we get around 50 ranging from.
“will this item fit my greyhound”
Try measuring your dog as i am miles away the sizes are in the description.
“Where is my item” Try checking the tracking.
“Is my item dispatched yet” Try checking the tracking”
AND THE BEST YET only yesterday.
It says delivered but i have not signed and no card was left.
Well it wouldn’t would it you did not select signed for and the shop was open all day and the staff took it in they did not need a card.
YOU REQUESTED DELIVERY TO A SAINSBURYS !!!!!!!!!!
That is why eBay are trailing behind amazon they attract the wrong types and hold the seller responsible for anything. Never once saying to buyers they are not using the site correctly. They just keep taking.
The other thing that is frustrating with eBay is that we get lots of product questions. We answer them all but find only 25% actually buy from us. They ask us the question and buy from an overseas sellers, who is just a box shifter and has no product knowledge but is cheap. These overseas sellers will state on their listing quite openly we will under declare the item value so that you avoid import duties. We can’t compete with that as we pay all duties on our. But ebay seam ok with VAT fraud and don’t care if goods are bought without import duties paid. If they care I am sure they could police the site to pick up on sellers claiming they will underdeclare the item value.
Instead they pick on business sellers by falsely claiming they are bad sellers to get penalty fees on returns.
I hope someone from ebay is reading this
Remember what is often said, “There are lies, damned lies and statistics”.
There are different ways to interpret or sell statistical data, just in the same way there are different ways and motives involved in interpreting and answering a question.
If someone already feels there are getting value for money, they are perhaps less likely to feel they need mention it, scoring it low in answer to a survey question. Whereas, someone who doesn’t believe they are getting value for money might feel strongly about the point and score it highly. Both are looking at the same question, but their subjective filters will affect how they answer.
All of this means the survey results are interesting, but not necessarily gospel.
In relation to Free Delivery, I’d hope buyers understand the cost is included in the price charged, but, for some, they perhaps prefer the simplicity of seeing one figure, with everything included, than having to calculate it from item cost plus shipping; as simple as such a calculation might sound.
Another recent survey suggested average intelligence levels are in decline, which, if correct, perhaps both supports my simplicity theory and is an underlying cause of it.
I can’t wait for this to blow up in Ebay’s face. I think they are unaware of how much abuse goes on and they also don’t realise that their third world support is beyond useless. I wouldn’t be surprised to find out that the guys in Manilla play video games all day and are scamming Ebay.
Ebay will eventually falsely accuse a business that wants to fight back and Ebay management will be shocked when the state of their marketplace is exposed in court.
In my humble opinion…
eBay are making lots of money, but will always want more.
There is only one reason that would force eBay to change course on any decision/policy – Legal enforcement
There is only one reason that could encourage eBay to change course on any decision/policy – A significant negative impact on their bottom line
Without either of the two points above coming into play, it’s open season on sellers.
With Brexit and all the political infighting taking place, I don’t see the first happening any time soon.
Without sellers leaving eBay (or significantly increasing their prices – @TomT), in sufficient numbers, things will likely worsen; with other policy changes likely on the horizon.
Buyers shouldn’t have feedback for themselves, they just need a VERY VISIBLE returns rate that everyone can see.
Sellers can then choose (within some settings) not to allow buyers to make purchases from them with a returns rate of more than X amount.
I also think that by making buyers publicly display their own returns metrics instead of a pointless 100% feedback score and make it visible to everyone, it’ll clean up the habits of the abusive ones. It’s a really simple idea if you think about it.
It’s unlikely to put buyers off using eBay at all however it will give each seller the ability to transact only with qualifying buyers.
For example: you could even display a sellers required “return rate” for buyers to see on a sellers listing. If the item being sold is a better price, but the buyer can’t buy it because they’ve abused their returns rate so much so that they don’t qualify to purchase the “best deal”, then they too will be keen to improve their “performance” (i.e. keep unnecessary returns to a minimum) so that they can qualify for the best deals available on the marketplace.
I have read on some ebay community boards, a few sellers were able to opt out after complaining, but this was before their new Terms Of Service agreement was updated.